there's a middle ground between "Linux as a personality" and " it doesn't matter at all who controls the future of computing". be careful not to react against one so hard that you slide right into the other.

@tindall my main beef is that both of these extremes ignore the orthogonal issue where operating systems and source code aren't really important to fixing the power dynamics that make today's computing bad

@scanlime @tindall dbus is still the most pro-user faculty i would point to, the core difference.

everywhere else, software is monolithic, has no extensibility. in linux, it's not great, but there is some notion that software is just a tool, and even without recompiling the source, users are sovereign & ought have power & control over the software. dbus embodies that, by making the software programmable & adaptable & flexible & extensible, even without recompiling, even without the source.

it's still dev-oriented, but at least it allows extensibility. your music app exposes mpris interfaces, so you can add another scrobbling app, or a gamepad control app, regardless of your music player. there's a general system for building together, unlike everywhere else on the planet.

@jauntywunderkind420 @tindall hm dbus would not be my first choice. how about good old unix pipes?

@scanlime @tindall pipes are a good example, but they don't aggregate. pipes are deep spellcraft, are a developer-style wisening that empowers the same same "source is available" folk but not the every-man. pipes don't accrue, pipe's dont build up, except as we, case by case, hack them. dbus, on the other hand, accrues, builds, is an ambient growing system of systems that continually extends the userland. dbus is richening. pipes are shallow, ad-hoc, specific, instantaneous. they have none of the enduring might of dbus. dbus extends the user-lands.

@jauntywunderkind420 @tindall i don't get how dbus is a user-friendly way to extend anything

@scanlime @tindall as per my first example, it allows runtime extensibility. your media players all export mpris controls, so you the user can just have some audioscrobbling, some joystick control, some hotkey daemons running, watching mpris, controlling as they may. it's decoupling grease for programs.

@jauntywunderkind420 @tindall in that example why does dbus help? what the user needs is a set of apps that work together. I don't see anything that's intrinsically allowing more user flexibility than what developers specifically plan for and test.

@scanlime dbus has been the only accepted, commonly used bus for interoperability, extension, & service activation in free software with significant adoption for around two decades now.

yes, sure, fine, there's no reason other rendezvous methods wouldn't work. but the number of pid1's that support dbus & dbus service activation is infinitely greater than the number of pid1's that support any other attempt or protocol.

@scanlime mostly though i just think dbus embodies the right spirit of freedom. it embodies the act of making software ambient, available, is a fine way for software to exhibit itself, make itself accessible. i do not see these characteristics in mainstream operating systems, and yes, i do not see this spirit of user-freedom particularly embodied by most other open source operating system environments. it's flawed, imperfect, not wholly sufficient, but freedesktop's adoption of dbus has been a very good & moral thing, has been the right direction for things. i very much would enjoy more competition on this front, but dbus has been a maximalizing system-of-systems for user-flexibility for over 20 years now.

@jauntywunderkind420 dbus and this thread are both just great examples of tech junk that is totally orthogonal to any actual problems or solutions

@scanlime ok well that's a jerkwad response to some very kindly reasoned & i think semi-substantiated argumentation.

i see no other places where open-source has marshalled a substantial front for user empowerment. dbus speaks for itself as supremely successful & competent.

i'm not afraid of looking at other options. i dont only vote by popularity, proven success. but there is almost no one else in the runnings. everyone else has been playing with themselves, for far too long. freedesktop has contributed real value. this thread is indeed insubstantial, but not on my side.

@scanlime i just want you to say something positive about something, to make some kind of case. rather than just trashing endlessly the cases i keep making. which i think have some value. if not perfect value.

@jauntywunderkind420 not gonna pretend computing is positive just for u lol

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